Talk:Movelist

Ballerina Spin

A) It does have an effect on the gameplay, it wall splates on hit B) It already is used in frame data all the time on this site, it has to be explained

Wherever it's currently used it should be removed. If a move wall splats, that should be indicated in the notes regardless. RogerDodger (talk) 15:47, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Then I would advice also removing all the +43a (+26a), as they cause more confusion than explanation

The purpose of indicating that is already explained elsewhere, but to be blunt: it's frame data, bro. RogerDodger (talk) 16:10, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

But also no one knows these numbers, they are less useful than just saying it launches, as in combos frame advantage doesn't play as much of a role as the actual position of the opponent. FrameBot recognizes the k symbol, but doesn't the on launch frames

See Template talk:MoveData#Why all this +17a (+8a) crap?. RogerDodger (talk) 16:31, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Framedata on knockdowns is very useful. I checked framedata numerous times over the years with TBP on moves that knockdown to check if followup is possible or with how slow of a move I can frametrap my opponent if they press wakeup kicks. Just a few examples from the top of my head(all for Dragunov): f+1+4 throw; f+2+3 throw; f,f+1+2 throw; b+4,3; wr2; b+1+2, d+3+4; and many-many other.

Kulagin (talk) 16:33, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Crush

In fighting games, that is called reversal mechanics, not only because under that category we also have actual parries, but also because that's what they are, reversal mechanics, things that make throwing moves in a disadvantage viable. Same reason Reversal as a fighting game term was going to be a page at some point

“Reversal” is already a term with a specific meaning in Tekken. This applies to “crush” as well, but it's shorter so preferred here. RogerDodger (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

And that meaning is a terrible meaning, as Reversals as parries, Parries, and Sabakis are essentially the same, and don't need any distinction other than disambiguation. People coming from other games are more likely to refer to Crushes as Reversals. And in Tekken we tend just to not have a common term for all the reversal options

"In fighting games, that is called reversal mechanics". Tekken is a fighting game. And in a fighting game Tekken reversal is a specific mechanic for actually reversing an attack of the opponent against themselves. You catch opponent's attack and turn their attack against themselves, hence reversing. Kulagin (talk) 16:21, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

"not only because under that category we also have actual parries, but also because that's what they are, reversal mechanics, things that make throwing moves in a disadvantage viable". Yes, and in Tekken crushing moves don't reverse anything. Crushing means lack of collision detection on hurtboxes of a defender and hitboxes of an attacker, hence crushing. Crushing moves do not reverse opponent's moves against them, that's what reversals do - they reverse. Kulagin (talk) 16:21, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

"And that meaning is a terrible meaning, as Reversals as parries, Parries, and Sabakis are essentially the same". No, it's not a terrible meaning. And reversals, parries and sabakis are not the same. Reversals reverse opponent's move and do damage to them and can be chickened, parries can't be chickened and sabakis are attack moves that can be counter hit. All the types of moves are in appropriate categories and everything is nice. Kulagin (talk) 16:21, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

"People coming from other games are more likely to refer to Crushes as Reversals". In 3 years of playing Tekken 7 and chatting on Discord actively I haven't seen it even once. Kulagin (talk) 16:21, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

General Approach to editing

Don't just delete articles, there is a reason why things get added. I added that information to the lettered add-ons because they just don't give full explanation, and since they don't have links to fuller pages, this is the place they are explained the most fully.

I'll try my best to explain why I delete anything in particular, but just because someone adds something doesn't mean it stays. There are also plenty of reasons to remove things: to ensure the writing is important, coherent, not redundant, etc. The primary concern of the wiki is to provide value to readers. It's of no relevance if something is true if it doesn't matter in a particular context. Most of what I've edited by you has been of this nature. RogerDodger (talk) 16:05, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

g -- Opponent can guard during recovery -- that explanation raises questions on what in the world does that mean, I know because it's a very common thing to need further explanation

Opponents can never move during any recovery. You confuse and waste readers' time telling them things they already know. RogerDodger (talk) 16:05, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

People get much more confused about "Opponent can guard during recovery", the experience of talking to players that meet +12g for the first time really suggests people don't understand it clearly. Most often actually after you say "Opponent can guard during recovery", they will ask a follow up example like "so they can't move, but they can block my mix up". Having no answer like "Yes, that's exactly what it is" just frustrates, and it happens every time someone notices that g in the end, or that their RD in-game says it's +12, but they block the jabs or d+4

0 doesn't need an operator - important thing to note, people would sometimes write +0 as advantage, especially on automated things

0 does need an operator, which is explicitly mentioned in Template:MoveData, and implied to be necessary by the text: "Any number with a + or - in front it indicates frame advantage ...". If your zero has no plus, then it is not a "number with a + or - in front of it". RogerDodger (talk) 16:05, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

This

For frame advantages:
Link to the combo page if it leads to a combo (even if the page doesn't exist yet).
Write +0, not -0 or just 0."

Wait just realized, it is just an unclear sentence. Still, 0 is usually written as just 0

Startup

The frames where the move can hit, also known as the active frames.

Factually wrong, categoriacally, directly contradicts the Frames page. And it's okay to explain things more than once, no one is expecting a person to read up every page on a wiki to get a hold of a particular subject

Not sure what part of "This—on top of the 1 frame for input processing—is simplified to saying that the move has a 10 frame startup and 17 frame recovery." you think contradicts this, other than that you also want to make that incoherent too. RogerDodger (talk) 16:08, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Start up frames are specifically the frames that the move cannot hit, and that is the distinction from the active frames