Talk:Movelist

Ballerina Spin

A) It does have an effect on the gameplay, it wall splates on hit B) It already is used in frame data all the time on this site, it has to be explained

Wherever it's currently used it should be removed. If a move wall splats, that should be indicated in the notes regardless. RogerDodger (talk) 15:47, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Then I would advice also removing all the +43a (+26a), as they cause more confusion than explanation

The purpose of indicating that is already explained elsewhere, but to be blunt: it's frame data, bro. RogerDodger (talk) 16:10, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

But also no one knows these numbers, they are less useful than just saying it launches, as in combos frame advantage doesn't play as much of a role as the actual position of the opponent. FrameBot recognizes the k symbol, but doesn't the on launch frames

See Template talk:MoveData#Why all this +17a (+8a) crap?. RogerDodger (talk) 16:31, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Framedata on knockdowns is very useful. I checked framedata numerous times over the years with TBP on moves that knockdown to check if followup is possible or with how slow of a move I can frametrap my opponent if they press wakeup kicks. Just a few examples from the top of my head(all for Dragunov): f+1+4 throw; f+2+3 throw; f,f+1+2 throw; b+4,3; wr2; b+1+2, d+3+4; and many-many other.

Kulagin (talk) 16:33, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Crush

In fighting games, that is called reversal mechanics, not only because under that category we also have actual parries, but also because that's what they are, reversal mechanics, things that make throwing moves in a disadvantage viable. Same reason Reversal as a fighting game term was going to be a page at some point

“Reversal” is already a term with a specific meaning in Tekken. This applies to “crush” as well, but it's shorter so preferred here. RogerDodger (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

And that meaning is a terrible meaning, as Reversals as parries, Parries, and Sabakis are essentially the same, and don't need any distinction other than disambiguation. People coming from other games are more likely to refer to Crushes as Reversals. And in Tekken we tend just to not have a common term for all the reversal options

"In fighting games, that is called reversal mechanics". Tekken is a fighting game. And in a fighting game Tekken reversal is a specific mechanic for actually reversing an attack of the opponent against themselves. You catch opponent's attack and turn their attack against themselves, hence reversing. Kulagin (talk) 16:21, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

"not only because under that category we also have actual parries, but also because that's what they are, reversal mechanics, things that make throwing moves in a disadvantage viable". Yes, and in Tekken crushing moves don't reverse anything. Crushing means lack of collision detection on hurtboxes of a defender and hitboxes of an attacker, hence crushing. Crushing moves do not reverse opponent's moves against them, that's what reversals do - they reverse. Kulagin (talk) 16:21, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

"And that meaning is a terrible meaning, as Reversals as parries, Parries, and Sabakis are essentially the same". No, it's not a terrible meaning. And reversals, parries and sabakis are not the same. Reversals reverse opponent's move and do damage to them and can be chickened, parries can't be chickened and sabakis are attack moves that can be counter hit. All the types of moves are in appropriate categories and everything is nice. Kulagin (talk) 16:21, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

"People coming from other games are more likely to refer to Crushes as Reversals". In 3 years of playing Tekken 7 and chatting on Discord actively I haven't seen it even once. Kulagin (talk) 16:21, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Because no one talks about them as all combined in Tekken normally, talking about Reversals is not a big thing, because we don't have full invincibility reversals (Except for 2ds). Tekken is a fighting game community of which doesn't play many other fighting games. "And reversals, parries and sabakis are not the same. Reversals reverse opponent's move and do damage to them and can be chickened, parries can't be chickened and sabakis are attack moves that can be counter hit. All the types of moves are in appropriate categories and everything is nice." - no, not everything, parries with confirm are basically reversals that you don't have to finish with the attack if you don't want to. +10 or better parries are basically reversals that you do have to know to finish with an attack of choice. Power crush parries is a mess. If you want to categorize reversals as the ones you can chicken, just call them chickenable parries, it's so much easier to just keep them all parries. Sabakis are moves with parry frames. Power crush parries are power crush parries. There are also attacks that act like parries, which are completely uncategorizable into the 3 types of parries. There are parries that go into stances, which one might argue makes enough difference for a completely separate name. Also people say Asuka's parry just as much if not more than as Asuka's reversal, and no one says what are the sabaki frames on this, it's not like the distinction is really needed.

"Because no one talks about them as all combined in Tekken normally", "it's so much easier to just keep them all parries", "Also people say Asuka's parry just as much if not more than as Asuka's reversal". Well, yeah, people do call of these moves parries. Kulagin (talk) 17:32, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

"parries with confirm are basically reversals that you don't have to finish with the attack if you don't want to". That's what distinguishes reversals and puts them in a special category. It's a specific unique game mechanic with specific special move properties in game's memory and just visually: they don't require additional button presses to do damage to the opponent and they can be chickened. Parries can't be chickened. Sabaki parries are attack moves(that can be counter-hit) that also have built-in parry frames during startup. Kulagin (talk) 17:32, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Also, when you say stuff like this, you're technically right, yes. And all parries as well attack moves are all just moves in the movelist that can be accessed with player inputs. So why do we put parries in one category and attack moves in a different category? Because they have different properties. Same with parry, reversal and sabaki parries: they're different categories of defensive moves because of different properties and game mechanics that drive them. Some people do call all of them just "parries": sabaki parry, parry, reversal - they put reversal in the parry category, together with the other parry, which is in the parry category, too. Kulagin (talk) 17:32, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

"There are parries that go into stances, which one might argue makes enough difference for a completely separate name". All parries(sabaki, parry, reversal) go into stances. They only differ by which stance they go into. So that would be, I don't know, to distinguish them by what stance they go into. And you don't want to make categories for a single character. Kulagin (talk) 17:32, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

In Tekken things named crushing, reversal, parry, sabaki refer to different specific game mechanics or a set of specific game mechanics(sabaki - attack move with built-in parry frames). Looks like you want to somehow combine them into one or two and use jargon from some other fighting games that you play? There's a saying "You don't come to another monastery with your own charter". There is a name for every specific game mechanic and/or mix of game mechanics and there are no contradictions, only mistakes people make and call things the words that weren't originally made to mean them: such as calling a reversal an unchickenable parry, which should just be called parry and not a reversal.Kulagin (talk) 17:32, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

General Approach to editing

Don't just delete articles, there is a reason why things get added. I added that information to the lettered add-ons because they just don't give full explanation, and since they don't have links to fuller pages, this is the place they are explained the most fully.

I'll try my best to explain why I delete anything in particular, but just because someone adds something doesn't mean it stays. There are also plenty of reasons to remove things: to ensure the writing is important, coherent, not redundant, etc. The primary concern of the wiki is to provide value to readers. It's of no relevance if something is true if it doesn't matter in a particular context. Most of what I've edited by you has been of this nature. RogerDodger (talk) 16:05, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

g -- Opponent can guard during recovery -- that explanation raises questions on what in the world does that mean, I know because it's a very common thing to need further explanation

Opponents can never move during any recovery. You confuse and waste readers' time telling them things they already know. RogerDodger (talk) 16:05, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

People get much more confused about "Opponent can guard during recovery", the experience of talking to players that meet +12g for the first time really suggests people don't understand it clearly. Most often actually after you say "Opponent can guard during recovery", they will ask a follow up example like "so they can't move, but they can block my mix up". Having no answer like "Yes, that's exactly what it is" just frustrates, and it happens every time someone notices that g in the end, or that their RD in-game says it's +12, but they block the jabs or d+4

0 doesn't need an operator - important thing to note, people would sometimes write +0 as advantage, especially on automated things

0 does need an operator, which is explicitly mentioned in Template:MoveData, and implied to be necessary by the text: "Any number with a + or - in front it indicates frame advantage ...". If your zero has no plus, then it is not a "number with a + or - in front of it". RogerDodger (talk) 16:05, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

This

For frame advantages:
Link to the combo page if it leads to a combo (even if the page doesn't exist yet).
Write +0, not -0 or just 0."

Wait just realized, it is just an unclear sentence. Still, 0 is usually written as just 0

Startup

The frames where the move can hit, also known as the active frames.

Factually wrong, categoriacally, directly contradicts the Frames page. And it's okay to explain things more than once, no one is expecting a person to read up every page on a wiki to get a hold of a particular subject

Not sure what part of "This—on top of the 1 frame for input processing—is simplified to saying that the move has a 10 frame startup and 17 frame recovery." you think contradicts this, other than that you also want to make that incoherent too. RogerDodger (talk) 16:08, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Start up frames are specifically the frames that the move cannot hit, and that is the distinction from the active frames

Range measurement

The range of moves in strings is currently measured as "the range of the whole string, including the forward movement between the string". In Yoshimitsu movelist, User:DarkSoulslsAFightingGame seems instead to be measuring from the start of the hit in question. It's not clear to me which of these values is more useful to measure. The current definition is used primarily because it's easier to measure.

For moves with multiple hits off a single input, the measurement from the first hit is usually all that's needed. For example, noting the range of the second hit of Lee's f+1+2 or f+3+4 isn't really useful. If such a move has a situation where first hit connects but later hits whiff, it could be said in the notes. But there might be some contexts where noting both ranges is useful, such as Yoshi's Taunt to Poison Breath. Separating these numbers by a comma seems to work fine, but this should be considered in the above context. If we were to say that e.g., f+3,4's range is measured from where Yoshi is when the second hit starts, but that Taunt to Poison Breath's second hit's range is measured from where he is at the start of the whole move, there is a contradiction. On the other hand, writing Taunt to Poison Breath's range as "1.5,1.5" would be rather confusing and seem to imply they have the same range. RogerDodger (talk) 16:55, 26 May 2021 (UTC)