(made a basic jin counterplay page with some info on how to beat common strings) Â |
(Added duckable strings, linear moves, throw game, wavedash, and gameplan & counterplay sections.) Â |
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{{Navbox Jin}} | |||
{{Navbox counterplay}} | |||
{{See other}} | |||
== Overview == | == Overview == | ||
As an opponent, Jin tends to have few weaknesses in his moves to exploit. His strings in particular are far safer and stronger than the average Tekken string. Nonetheless, there are always countermeasures—but the main goal will likely still be to find weaknesses in the player's habits rather than Jin himself. | As an opponent, Jin tends to have few weaknesses in his moves to exploit. His strings in particular are far safer and stronger than the average Tekken string. Nonetheless, there are always countermeasures—but the main goal will likely still be to find weaknesses in the player's habits rather than Jin himself. | ||
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{{MoveQuery|Jin-1,2,3}} | {{MoveQuery|Jin-1,2,3}} | ||
Another high into mid string. This one has more range, but is less solid as there is a large gap between the 2 and the 3, giving you a chance to '''SSR and get a full launch punish'''. It can be a bit tricky to react to and will knock you down on any stray hit, so you still have to be quite careful when trying to contest it. Since it's 0 on block, you can simply not worry about it and try to take your turn back with an i10, but the potential reward for stepping will likely urge a Jin to use this string very sparingly. | Another high into mid string. This one has more range, but is less solid as there is a large gap between the 2 and the 3, giving you a chance to '''SSR and get a full launch punish'''. It can be a bit tricky to react to and will knock you down on any stray hit, so you still have to be quite careful when trying to contest it. Since it's 0 on block, you can simply not worry about it and try to take your turn back with an i10, but the potential reward for stepping will likely urge a Jin to use this string very sparingly. | ||
== Duckable strings == | |||
===2,4=== | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-2,4}} {{MoveQuery|Jin-2,4,F}} | |||
Jin's 10 frame punish, 2nd hit can be ducked on reaction and launch punished, however, the timing is pretty strict and i16 and slower ws launchers may bee too slow. | |||
===3,1,4=== | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-3,1,4}} | |||
Final hit is a low, can be low parried even if 3,1 connects, alternatively duck and punish with your character's i13 punisher. | |||
===df+1,4=== | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-df+1,4}} | |||
Natural combo on hit, however doesn't jail on block, can be ducked and launched, or highcrushed with a downjab. His df+1 has a 2nd extension in df+1,4~4, which is a mid. {{MoveQuery|Jin-df+1,4~4}} Can be blocked and punished or sidestepped to the right. Careful when sidestepping this move on a read, as the 2nd hit of his df+1,4 tracks to the right. | |||
===d+3,4 and extentions=== | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-d+3,4}} {{MoveQuery|Jin-d+3,4,3}} {{MoveQuery|Jin-d+3,4~4}} | |||
Rarely seen outside of certain combos, but useful to be aware of. The 2nd hit of d+3,4 can be ducked and interrupted, additionally, both the 2nd hit of d+3,4~4 and the 3rd hit of d+3,4,3 can be punished with your i12 standing punisher, while the former can also be interrupted with a downjab. | |||
===db+2,2,3=== | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-db+2,2,3}} | |||
Jin's wall combo ender. The 2nd hit of this string is a high, however, due to the risk of being ch launched by the delayable 3rd hit of this string, avoid ducking and punishing this string. If the 3rd hit of this string is being delayed, SSR instead. | |||
===b,f+2,1,2 and b,f+2,1,df+2=== | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-b,f+2,1,2}}{{MoveQuery|Jin-b,f+2,1,df+2}} | |||
In both of these strings, the 2nd hit is a high, however, ducking it is not recommended. Instead, use SSR into block to beat both options for the 3rd hit of the string, as the 2 extension doesn't track to the right, and the df+2 extension is much slower in comparison, and unsafe at -14. | |||
===ZEN.1,3=== | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-ZEN.1,3}} | |||
Strictly a combo ender move, however, if used in neutral, it's useful to know that the 2nd hit can be ducked and recovers very slowly on whiff. | |||
== Linear moves == | |||
===f,F+2=== | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-f,F+2}} | |||
Demon paw is notoriously hard to step in Tekken 8, but very much doable. This is a very commonly seen approach tool and mid check you will see used in every match against Jin. It can be reliably stepped to your right if done with the correct timing. While difficult to SSR in neutral, Jin players will often use it after a blocked cd2 or after a blocked f,F4 as a spacing trap. Additionally, since it's a wallsplat, it's not uncommon to see it used as a pressure/mixup tool in that scenario. However, at -9 on block, do not allow Jin to continue pressuring you after you block this attack. If Jin is in heat, SSR with caution as this move provides a full combo on heat dash. | |||
===f+4 and f+4,F=== | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-f+4}} {{MoveQuery|Jin-f+4,F}} | |||
Front thrust kick and it's Zen transition counterpart are key moves in Jin's toolkit. Being a safe i16 CH launching mid, it's one of Jin's most important keepout moves, but can be easily stepped to both sides as it's completely linear. Occasionally used as a spacing trap after f,F+2, f,F+4, ws1,3~B and f+3,3~B. Can transition to zen by holding forward, which reduces its -9 on block to a -1 on block, but all offensive options from this zen transition, except zen 2, can be beaten with a quick mid poke such as df+1. | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-ZEN.2}} | |||
Zen 2 is a homing high powercrush, and can be countered with a grab or by ducking it. | |||
===f,F+4=== | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-f,F+4}} | |||
Another very linear move, generally reserved only for guaranteed follow ups after certain moves (e.g. 1+2 into heat dash). It can occasionally be seen used as a mid option for a mixup at the wall, due to its wallsplat and wallbreak properties. This move is also extremely linear and can be stepped in both directions, however, as it is a f,F input move, precise timing is required to execute this, as sidestepping prior to the first f input will realign Jin with your character. | |||
==Throw game== | |||
Jin has access to a full throw game with the following grabs: | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-df+2+3}} | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-uf+1+2}} | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-qcb+1+3}} | |||
Most commonly used grabs are Shun Ren Dan (2 break) and Tidal wave (1+2 break), but since all 3 grabs have unique animations, the best counterplay is to practice recognizing throw animations, and breaking them on reaction. | |||
==Wavedash== | |||
Jin has access to a mishima style wavedash, however, his gameplan relies less on 50/50 mixups. Jin's wavedash, in no particular order, serves 3 purposes: | |||
1) Create mixup situations | |||
2) Offset the timing of his offense | |||
3) Realign with a sidestepping opponent | |||
=====1.) Wavedash mixup===== | |||
Wavedashing requires quite a bit of practice to execute quickly and properly, and can generally be seen used by intermediate players and above. Due to the nature of Tekken's movement system, properly used wavedashing has no easy and simple counterplay. From his wavedash, Jin has the option to defensively cancel into a block, or offensively use his crouchdash, f,F input attacks, or even attacks from while standing, at any time during the wavedash. | |||
Akin to Kayuza, the two most common moves from his wavedash is between his low cd4 Hellsweep, and his launching mid f,F+3. | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-CD.DF+4,2}} | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-f,F+3}} | |||
Unlike Kazuya and the other mishimas, Jin doesn't rely on this mixup in neutral as heavily, and it's most commonly seen in Oki situations. | |||
Jin's hellsweep animation is slower and visually very distinct from similar moves. The leg sweep is done while standing up, in contrast to the mishimas' hellsweep, which has them crouching during the animation. If the hellsweep is done from a single crouchdash, it is much more reactable, and learning to recognize this animation is highly recommended. | |||
=====2.) Offsetting attack timing===== | |||
Wavedashing can be inputted continuously and indefinitely. In higher levels of play, wavedashing serves the important purpose of mixing up the timing of Jin's offence rather than mixing up which attacks are being used. Being too predictable in your offence or your reaction to your opponent's actions is an easy way to hand your opponent the win. By utilizing wavedashes, Jin can easily change up his timings by increasing or decreasing the number of wavedashes done prior to an attack. | |||
=====3.) Realigning with a sidestepping opponent===== | |||
Wavedashing realigns your player with the opponent if they are off-axis in any direction. As many of Jin's best tools are weak to SSR, wavedashing can prevent the opponnent from easily countering Jin's offense. However, this doesn't mean that wavedashing completely neutralizes sidestepping/walking as a defensive option, but it does mean that, in order to successfully evade a move, sidesteps must be precisely timed and inputted with his attacks. Generally, to sidestep/sidewalk an attack from a wavedashing opponent, the sidestep/sidewalk must be inputted a few frames prior to-/during the attack's startup frames. | |||
Jin's wavedash can be countered by understanding your opponents habits and timings, by either interrupting his offence or making a read on their next move, and choosing the appropriate counter to it. | |||
==Jin's gameplan and counterplay== | |||
Being a jack of all trades, master of none, Jin can easily and effectively be played in a wide variety of playstyles, and has all the necessary tools to adapt to any situation he is put in. | |||
Yet, the two main playstyles Jin struggles coutering most are rushdown and keepout playstyles. Keepout being the safer and more effective of the two if Jin. | |||
If rushdown is chosen, it's imporant to note that Jin has certain panic moves in his arsenal, such as uf+2 and zen u+1, which can be frustratingly effective. | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-uf+2}} | |||
This move has a built in sidestep to Jin's left, and if it lands as a CH, it more often than not creates enough space to fully reset neutral. | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-ZEN.u+1}} | |||
This move evades lows, while the Zenshin stance allowing the move to be accessed evades highs. Being launch punishable by the entire cast at -16, it is a high risk high reward option most likely encountered in a last hit situation. | |||
===Low pokes=== | |||
Jin has excellent lows he can use to open up an opponent, especially with the newest addition to his movelist in Tekken 8 - "Scourge". | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-d+2}} | |||
This high crusing, tracking, CH launching low is main way of dealing with turtling opponents. This move is on the verge of being unseeable at i22 startup, and a decent amount of practice is required to block on reaction, but nevertheless it's possible. | |||
His other important lows are his db+4 poke: | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-db+4}} | |||
While not very threatening on it's own, a good Jin player will be using this unseeable low to force a stand blocking opponent to start crouching, as the damage can quickly add up. | |||
And his d+4 poke: | |||
{{MoveQuery|Jin-d+4}} | |||
This low is a fast high crushing option Jin can use to interrupt his opponent. It's a low risk low reward option generally thrown in when trying to poke your opponent out. | |||
====Closing thoughts==== | |||
While Jin can deal with any situation, the best counters are defensive playstyles, evasive characters and opponents with superior reach. Create space with movement to exploit his linear approach tools, this will prevent him from gaining momentum, and keep applying pressure once a life lead has been established. | |||
Jin has good reach with both his mid and low pokes, so avoid directly challenging him in this area unless you are confident that you can gain an advantage and maintain it. | |||
Latest revision as of 05:24, 21 August 2024
| Jin |
|---|
| Counterplay (Tekken 8) |
|---|
This page is for Tekken 8. For Tekken 7, see Jin counterplay (Tekken 7).
Overview
As an opponent, Jin tends to have few weaknesses in his moves to exploit. His strings in particular are far safer and stronger than the average Tekken string. Nonetheless, there are always countermeasures—but the main goal will likely still be to find weaknesses in the player's habits rather than Jin himself.
Dealing With Strings
2,1,4
2,1,4
- Combo from 2nd CH with 8f delay
- Input can be delayed 10f
This is a notoriously good string that many Jins can autopilot into with very little consequence.
The first thing to know is do NOT mash, as the 4 followup is an airtight frame trap that will knock you down on counterhit.
Instead, a simple thing you can do is buffer a backdash between the 1 and the 4. This way, you can make space for yourself while still keeping your guard up. If you do this from the tip of this string's range and Jin delays the 4 followup, you can even make it whiff and get a punish with no risk of getting hit.
If the Jin likes to delay the 4 followup, you can also try to SSR it. This is a bit of a risk, but it's still much safer than mashing as you won't take a lot of damage and Jin will only be +4 on the hit.
One last thing to be wary of is the low followup:
2,1,4~4
This is very telegraphed and reactable once you're familiar with it, but always keep an eye out since Jin can use this string so often that it may slip your memory that this option exists.
1,3,4
1,3,4
- Combo from 2nd CH with 7f delay
- Input can be delayed 12f
The first low in this string is unreactable, so you're bound to get hit by it sometimes, but there's a very important thing to remember when trying to react to the second low after getting hit: BLOCK low, DON'T low parry. Being in a hit state stops you from being able to low parry, meaning you'll only be able to block and get a -13 WS punish on this, but it's still certainly worth doing.
Many Jins are aware that this string is very reactable, so they will tend to only do 1,3.
1,3
- Combo from 1st hit with 4f delay
- Grounded hit can be inconsistent
Remember, this is only -1 on hit. Take your turn to stop him from endlessly jailing you into his strings.
1,2,3
1,2,3
- Interrupt with i10 from 2nd block
- Input can be delayed 9f
- Move can be delayed 4f
Another high into mid string. This one has more range, but is less solid as there is a large gap between the 2 and the 3, giving you a chance to SSR and get a full launch punish. It can be a bit tricky to react to and will knock you down on any stray hit, so you still have to be quite careful when trying to contest it. Since it's 0 on block, you can simply not worry about it and try to take your turn back with an i10, but the potential reward for stepping will likely urge a Jin to use this string very sparingly.
Duckable strings
2,4
2,4
- Combo from 1st hit with 2f delay
- Enter ZEN -6 +14 r26 with F
Lua error: Move with id = 'Jin-2,4,F' not found. If you've added 'Jin-2,4,F' in this edit, try saving the page twice. There is a known issue when looking up a move made in the same edit..
Jin's 10 frame punish, 2nd hit can be ducked on reaction and launch punished, however, the timing is pretty strict and i16 and slower ws launchers may bee too slow.
3,1,4
3,1,4
- Combo from 2nd CH with 9f delay
- Input can be delayed 14f
- Move can be delayed 12f
Final hit is a low, can be low parried even if 3,1 connects, alternatively duck and punish with your character's i13 punisher.
df+1,4
df+1,4
- Combo from 1st hit with 5f delay
- Input can be delayed 10f
- Move can be delayed 9f
Natural combo on hit, however doesn't jail on block, can be ducked and launched, or highcrushed with a downjab. His df+1 has a 2nd extension in df+1,4~4, which is a mid.
Can be blocked and punished or sidestepped to the right. Careful when sidestepping this move on a read, as the 2nd hit of his df+1,4 tracks to the right.
d+3,4 and extentions
d+3,4,3
- Combo from 2nd CH with 2f delay
- Input can be delayed 10f
Rarely seen outside of certain combos, but useful to be aware of. The 2nd hit of d+3,4 can be ducked and interrupted, additionally, both the 2nd hit of d+3,4~4 and the 3rd hit of d+3,4,3 can be punished with your i12 standing punisher, while the former can also be interrupted with a downjab.
db+2,2,3
db+2,2,3
- Balcony break on airborne hit
Jin's wall combo ender. The 2nd hit of this string is a high, however, due to the risk of being ch launched by the delayable 3rd hit of this string, avoid ducking and punishing this string. If the 3rd hit of this string is being delayed, SSR instead.
b,f+2,1,2 and b,f+2,1,df+2
b,f+2,1,2
- Combo from 2nd CH with 15f
- Input can be delayed 16f
- Move can be delayed 10f
b,f+2,1,df+2
- Combo from 2nd CH
- Input can be delayed 16f
- Move can be delayed 10f
In both of these strings, the 2nd hit is a high, however, ducking it is not recommended. Instead, use SSR into block to beat both options for the 3rd hit of the string, as the 2 extension doesn't track to the right, and the df+2 extension is much slower in comparison, and unsafe at -14.
ZEN.1,3
ZEN.1,3
- Combo from 1st hit
- Transition to attack throw on standing or airborne hit
- +33a (+18) on side hit
- +18a (+11) and balcony break on BT hit
Strictly a combo ender move, however, if used in neutral, it's useful to know that the 2nd hit can be ducked and recovers very slowly on whiff.
Linear moves
f,F+2
f,F+2
- Cannot be buffered
- 6 chip damage on block
Demon paw is notoriously hard to step in Tekken 8, but very much doable. This is a very commonly seen approach tool and mid check you will see used in every match against Jin. It can be reliably stepped to your right if done with the correct timing. While difficult to SSR in neutral, Jin players will often use it after a blocked cd2 or after a blocked f,F4 as a spacing trap. Additionally, since it's a wallsplat, it's not uncommon to see it used as a pressure/mixup tool in that scenario. However, at -9 on block, do not allow Jin to continue pressuring you after you block this attack. If Jin is in heat, SSR with caution as this move provides a full combo on heat dash.
f+4 and f+4,F
f+4
- Enter ZEN -1 +11 +49a r26 with F
- Balcony break on airborne hit
Lua error: Move with id = 'Jin-f+4,F' not found. If you've added 'Jin-f+4,F' in this edit, try saving the page twice. There is a known issue when looking up a move made in the same edit..
Front thrust kick and it's Zen transition counterpart are key moves in Jin's toolkit. Being a safe i16 CH launching mid, it's one of Jin's most important keepout moves, but can be easily stepped to both sides as it's completely linear. Occasionally used as a spacing trap after f,F+2, f,F+4, ws1,3~B and f+3,3~B. Can transition to zen by holding forward, which reduces its -9 on block to a -1 on block, but all offensive options from this zen transition, except zen 2, can be beaten with a quick mid poke such as df+1.
ZEN.2
- Chip damage on block
- +0 on block after absorbing an attack
Zen 2 is a homing high powercrush, and can be countered with a grab or by ducking it.
f,F+4
Another very linear move, generally reserved only for guaranteed follow ups after certain moves (e.g. 1+2 into heat dash). It can occasionally be seen used as a mid option for a mixup at the wall, due to its wallsplat and wallbreak properties. This move is also extremely linear and can be stepped in both directions, however, as it is a f,F input move, precise timing is required to execute this, as sidestepping prior to the first f input will realign Jin with your character.
Throw game
Jin has access to a full throw game with the following grabs:
qcb+1+3
- Throw break 1
- Opponent recovers FUFA
Most commonly used grabs are Shun Ren Dan (2 break) and Tidal wave (1+2 break), but since all 3 grabs have unique animations, the best counterplay is to practice recognizing throw animations, and breaking them on reaction.
Wavedash
Jin has access to a mishima style wavedash, however, his gameplan relies less on 50/50 mixups. Jin's wavedash, in no particular order, serves 3 purposes:
1) Create mixup situations
2) Offset the timing of his offense
3) Realign with a sidestepping opponent
1.) Wavedash mixup
Wavedashing requires quite a bit of practice to execute quickly and properly, and can generally be seen used by intermediate players and above. Due to the nature of Tekken's movement system, properly used wavedashing has no easy and simple counterplay. From his wavedash, Jin has the option to defensively cancel into a block, or offensively use his crouchdash, f,F input attacks, or even attacks from while standing, at any time during the wavedash.
Akin to Kayuza, the two most common moves from his wavedash is between his low cd4 Hellsweep, and his launching mid f,F+3.
CD.DF+4,2
- ,js8~28
- fs29~31
- Combo from 1st hit
- Chip damage on block
Unlike Kazuya and the other mishimas, Jin doesn't rely on this mixup in neutral as heavily, and it's most commonly seen in Oki situations.
Jin's hellsweep animation is slower and visually very distinct from similar moves. The leg sweep is done while standing up, in contrast to the mishimas' hellsweep, which has them crouching during the animation. If the hellsweep is done from a single crouchdash, it is much more reactable, and learning to recognize this animation is highly recommended.
2.) Offsetting attack timing
Wavedashing can be inputted continuously and indefinitely. In higher levels of play, wavedashing serves the important purpose of mixing up the timing of Jin's offence rather than mixing up which attacks are being used. Being too predictable in your offence or your reaction to your opponent's actions is an easy way to hand your opponent the win. By utilizing wavedashes, Jin can easily change up his timings by increasing or decreasing the number of wavedashes done prior to an attack.
3.) Realigning with a sidestepping opponent
Wavedashing realigns your player with the opponent if they are off-axis in any direction. As many of Jin's best tools are weak to SSR, wavedashing can prevent the opponnent from easily countering Jin's offense. However, this doesn't mean that wavedashing completely neutralizes sidestepping/walking as a defensive option, but it does mean that, in order to successfully evade a move, sidesteps must be precisely timed and inputted with his attacks. Generally, to sidestep/sidewalk an attack from a wavedashing opponent, the sidestep/sidewalk must be inputted a few frames prior to-/during the attack's startup frames.
Jin's wavedash can be countered by understanding your opponents habits and timings, by either interrupting his offence or making a read on their next move, and choosing the appropriate counter to it.
Jin's gameplan and counterplay
Being a jack of all trades, master of none, Jin can easily and effectively be played in a wide variety of playstyles, and has all the necessary tools to adapt to any situation he is put in.
Yet, the two main playstyles Jin struggles coutering most are rushdown and keepout playstyles. Keepout being the safer and more effective of the two if Jin.
If rushdown is chosen, it's imporant to note that Jin has certain panic moves in his arsenal, such as uf+2 and zen u+1, which can be frustratingly effective.
uf+2
- Balcony break on CH
- Evasive, can avoid some attacks due to built-in sidestep
This move has a built in sidestep to Jin's left, and if it lands as a CH, it more often than not creates enough space to fully reset neutral.
ZEN.u+1
- js8~43
- fs44~46
- Chip damage on block
This move evades lows, while the Zenshin stance allowing the move to be accessed evades highs. Being launch punishable by the entire cast at -16, it is a high risk high reward option most likely encountered in a last hit situation.
Low pokes
Jin has excellent lows he can use to open up an opponent, especially with the newest addition to his movelist in Tekken 8 - "Scourge".
This high crusing, tracking, CH launching low is main way of dealing with turtling opponents. This move is on the verge of being unseeable at i22 startup, and a decent amount of practice is required to block on reaction, but nevertheless it's possible.
His other important lows are his db+4 poke:
While not very threatening on it's own, a good Jin player will be using this unseeable low to force a stand blocking opponent to start crouching, as the damage can quickly add up.
And his d+4 poke:
This low is a fast high crushing option Jin can use to interrupt his opponent. It's a low risk low reward option generally thrown in when trying to poke your opponent out.
Closing thoughts
While Jin can deal with any situation, the best counters are defensive playstyles, evasive characters and opponents with superior reach. Create space with movement to exploit his linear approach tools, this will prevent him from gaining momentum, and keep applying pressure once a life lead has been established.
Jin has good reach with both his mid and low pokes, so avoid directly challenging him in this area unless you are confident that you can gain an advantage and maintain it.